Comments on: A conversation between friends about God http://www.hologramthoughts.com/2007/02/14/a-conversation-between-friends-about-god/ Because Ideas Last Forever Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:54:54 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2 By: Matt Williamson http://www.hologramthoughts.com/2007/02/14/a-conversation-between-friends-about-god/#comment-39 Matt Williamson Wed, 05 Dec 2007 23:06:14 +0000 http://gracesingles.com/mw/?p=27#comment-39 The ebook that JZ mentions is now at this url: http://www.andrewsmcmeel.com/godsdebris/ The ebook that JZ mentions is now at this url: http://www.andrewsmcmeel.com/godsdebris/

]]> By: Matt http://www.hologramthoughts.com/2007/02/14/a-conversation-between-friends-about-god/#comment-38 Matt Fri, 23 Feb 2007 19:22:00 +0000 http://gracesingles.com/mw/?p=27#comment-38 Hey JZ, I have not, but i am now. Thanks for the link...<br/><br/><br/>Matt Hey JZ, I have not, but i am now. Thanks for the link…

Matt

]]> By: JZ http://www.hologramthoughts.com/2007/02/14/a-conversation-between-friends-about-god/#comment-37 JZ Fri, 23 Feb 2007 18:09:00 +0000 http://gracesingles.com/mw/?p=27#comment-37 Matt, have you read God's Debris?<br/><br/>This post makes me thing of that book.<br/>http://dilbertblog.typepad.com/the_dilbert_blog/2005/11/free_ebook_of_g.html Matt, have you read God’s Debris?

This post makes me thing of that book.
http://dilbertblog.typepad.com/the_dilbert_blog/2005/11/free_ebook_of_g.html

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.hologramthoughts.com/2007/02/14/a-conversation-between-friends-about-god/#comment-36 Anonymous Fri, 23 Feb 2007 17:46:00 +0000 http://gracesingles.com/mw/?p=27#comment-36 @pat - Going to disagree with the idea that God has preserved his word. I can give what I feel is complete proof that he hasn't. There was a period of about 1,000 years where the "word" of God existed, however it didn't exist on paper bound in leather with ones name embossed on the back. It existed through the spoken word of the church. If you wanted to know the word of God and what he wanted from you there was only one option, go to the church where the church would honestly translate the sacred Latin texts that they kept "protected". In this age God's word was much different than it is now. Want forgiveness of sins? No problem, pay the church and they would happily negotiate a deal with God on your behalf to rid you of your sins. The church was also great at letting the people know that their passed loved ones were being tormented in purgatory...and again for a large fee the church would strike up a deal with God and have these tortured souls relocated to heaven. During the end of this time people were able to get their hands on the Bible as they grew suspicious of the possibilities that the church was in it for the money not for God. It was possible for one to get his hands on his own Bible however owning the Bible was the equivalent of possessing large amounts of of cocaine today. Bibles were smuggled into the towns hidden in food, people caught with them were murdered, people caught distributing them were murdered and the Church/govt would burn confiscated Bibles just as they burn illegal drugs today.<br/><br/>The Bible gives a warning to those who attempt to alter the Bible with the judgement being very severe. Why would God give a warning against altering his word if it weren't possible? He did it for a reason, because it is possible, and people have been doing it for thousands of years. @pat - Going to disagree with the idea that God has preserved his word. I can give what I feel is complete proof that he hasn’t. There was a period of about 1,000 years where the “word” of God existed, however it didn’t exist on paper bound in leather with ones name embossed on the back. It existed through the spoken word of the church. If you wanted to know the word of God and what he wanted from you there was only one option, go to the church where the church would honestly translate the sacred Latin texts that they kept “protected”. In this age God’s word was much different than it is now. Want forgiveness of sins? No problem, pay the church and they would happily negotiate a deal with God on your behalf to rid you of your sins. The church was also great at letting the people know that their passed loved ones were being tormented in purgatory…and again for a large fee the church would strike up a deal with God and have these tortured souls relocated to heaven. During the end of this time people were able to get their hands on the Bible as they grew suspicious of the possibilities that the church was in it for the money not for God. It was possible for one to get his hands on his own Bible however owning the Bible was the equivalent of possessing large amounts of of cocaine today. Bibles were smuggled into the towns hidden in food, people caught with them were murdered, people caught distributing them were murdered and the Church/govt would burn confiscated Bibles just as they burn illegal drugs today.

The Bible gives a warning to those who attempt to alter the Bible with the judgement being very severe. Why would God give a warning against altering his word if it weren’t possible? He did it for a reason, because it is possible, and people have been doing it for thousands of years.

]]> By: pat http://www.hologramthoughts.com/2007/02/14/a-conversation-between-friends-about-god/#comment-35 pat Fri, 23 Feb 2007 02:07:00 +0000 http://gracesingles.com/mw/?p=27#comment-35 I hope i didnt come off sounding like i was accusing you of being dumb, because obviously you aren't. I, like you, have supreme faith and confidence that God can get his story straight, but i take it step further and say that i believe God not only got his story straight but also intrusted man, his most beloved creation, with the task of cataloging his history, teachings, and his ultimate plan for man's redemption. I am very familar with the examples you gave except one, and also know several more that you didn't list (though I'm sure you're also aware of other instances). While on the surface, and even with some investigation, a few of these examples are hard to reconcile, however, once you fully commit to exploring these examples, and truly search, I have found these apparent contradictions actually line up nicely. I believe the Bible is God's word because it says it is. It has yet to fail me, and if I believe that strongly in God and his power, then I have no problem believing he also has the power to unsure and protect the integrity of his written word, even as he worked through men of God to write it. <br/><br/>I would encourage you to keep searching for the answers regarding these examples you gave. I'm not encouraging you from a naive, happy-go-lucky christian, but as someone who has literally tried to wrestled God to the floor and make him cry uncle. Calling God everything other than "Holy", and just being downright pissed to the point of hating him. But it was the power of his word, the bible, that brought me back and God's grace that restored me.<br/><br/>Please, don't give up!<br/><br/>If you like, i would be more than willing to continue on with the conversation in private. Let me know and ill post my email address. I hope i didnt come off sounding like i was accusing you of being dumb, because obviously you aren’t. I, like you, have supreme faith and confidence that God can get his story straight, but i take it step further and say that i believe God not only got his story straight but also intrusted man, his most beloved creation, with the task of cataloging his history, teachings, and his ultimate plan for man’s redemption. I am very familar with the examples you gave except one, and also know several more that you didn’t list (though I’m sure you’re also aware of other instances). While on the surface, and even with some investigation, a few of these examples are hard to reconcile, however, once you fully commit to exploring these examples, and truly search, I have found these apparent contradictions actually line up nicely. I believe the Bible is God’s word because it says it is. It has yet to fail me, and if I believe that strongly in God and his power, then I have no problem believing he also has the power to unsure and protect the integrity of his written word, even as he worked through men of God to write it.

I would encourage you to keep searching for the answers regarding these examples you gave. I’m not encouraging you from a naive, happy-go-lucky christian, but as someone who has literally tried to wrestled God to the floor and make him cry uncle. Calling God everything other than “Holy”, and just being downright pissed to the point of hating him. But it was the power of his word, the bible, that brought me back and God’s grace that restored me.

Please, don’t give up!

If you like, i would be more than willing to continue on with the conversation in private. Let me know and ill post my email address.

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.hologramthoughts.com/2007/02/14/a-conversation-between-friends-about-god/#comment-34 Anonymous Fri, 23 Feb 2007 00:51:00 +0000 http://gracesingles.com/mw/?p=27#comment-34 @Pat - Thanks for addressing me, I was the one to make the first reply to this post. First off I want to clarify, I have been in your position before, I do respect your opinion on this subject greatly. Also, just so you know my background, I was born and raised in a non-denomination church went to a Christian school and was an all around good kid growing up. I guess what I am trying to establish is that I was never the average "Christian" the person who uses the Bible as a paperweight getting it out only in times of desperate need. To this day I still study and read my Bible regularly. The changing of my faith didn't happen because I wanted to reject the things that were forced on me. In your reply you challenged those who doubt to do their investigation. Surprisingly that is the reason I no longer believe. In an attempt to try and learn more and more about the religion I practiced I managed to study too much, and what I found essentially altered my viewpoint. In your reply you also asked me to prove that the Bible isn't the work of God, I think I can give some pretty good arguments to support this claim.<br/><br/>Whether its to make it seem more dramatic, exaggerating to impress, or just forgetting details, when men tell stories they seem to tell the same story differently every time they tell it. Not saying this is always the case, but its fairly common. Also, if two men attempt to give an account of something that happens, again the stories are hardly ever the same. There are significant details that are either added or subtracted from the accounts. When reading the Bible its completely obvious that the same stories are often told but are sometimes told differently. I would like to think that an all knowing, honest God would be able to get the story right once and then not have to tell it again. In the bible, the stories are repeated, for what reason must God repeat the same stories over and over? And the stories repeated are often told much differently with key things being left out or added.<br/><br/><b>Example.</b> What is the lineage of Jesus Christ? Depends, Matthew gives one account, Luke gives a completely different account. Why would an honest all knowing God give two completely separate accounts? And yes, I have heard all of the arguments attempting to explain why the accounts are different...wishful thinking. Why would God give two different accounts that could be used to cause people to stumble and face his eternal wrath?<br/><br/><b>Example.</b> What were the last words of Christ before being crucified? Probably the single most influential man in western culture, the crux of the New Testament and Christianity, you would think that God could give a straight account of what his last words were. And again, the answer to this question depends on the account that you read. Three different accounts, three different stories.<br/><br/><b>Example.</b> King David. 2 Samuel gives an accurate portrayal of David, it shows his Dr. Heckyl side as well as his Mr. Hyde side. We see a loving compassionate man of God, but we also see a man full of wickedness willing to commit adultury, murder his own men, and demand the slaughter of people who are lame and blind (<a HREF="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Samuel%205:6-9;&version=49;" REL="nofollow">2 Samuel 5:8)</a>. We also see that other accounts of King David, from the Chronicler, are written totally differently. The portrayals are cleverly written in a way that completely ignores all the bad stuff that 2 Samuel details. As if the Chronicler was attempting to make King David out to be more Godly. Did the Chronicler have a political,religious, or personal axe to grind? And one may argue that Chronicles was just God representing the faithful aspects of King David so it ignores the unflattering stories already covered by 2 Samuel. However, the same stories depicted in 2 Samuel that represent a wicked man are told in a way that represents a Godly man, same exact stories, but a different message portrayed. (Compare <a HREF="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Chronicles%2011:%204-9;&version=49;" REL="nofollow">1 Chronicles 11:4</a> with 2 Samuel 5:8 above, notice the hatred for the lame and blind has been ommitted)<br/><br/><b>Example.</b> The death of Goliath. So who killed Goliath? Was it King David? 2 Samuel 21:19 says that Elhanan son of Jaare-Oregim killed Goliath. That is if you are reading a bible that was translated from Hebrew Text (NIV, NAS). If you are reading a Bible translated by King James it has been changed to say that Elhanan killed the <b>brother</b> of Goliath...how convenient. I think I am going to believe the Hebrew text on this one rather than King James. If I believe the Hebrew texts than again we have another conflict with that pesky revisionist...the Chronicler.<br/><br/>I think these examples prove that if the Bible is the word of God, God has a problem keeping his stories straight. I don't believe that at all, I give God much more credit, I think God can keep his stories straight. I think the Bible is the word of man, and man has a problem keeping his stories straight. @Pat - Thanks for addressing me, I was the one to make the first reply to this post. First off I want to clarify, I have been in your position before, I do respect your opinion on this subject greatly. Also, just so you know my background, I was born and raised in a non-denomination church went to a Christian school and was an all around good kid growing up. I guess what I am trying to establish is that I was never the average “Christian” the person who uses the Bible as a paperweight getting it out only in times of desperate need. To this day I still study and read my Bible regularly. The changing of my faith didn’t happen because I wanted to reject the things that were forced on me. In your reply you challenged those who doubt to do their investigation. Surprisingly that is the reason I no longer believe. In an attempt to try and learn more and more about the religion I practiced I managed to study too much, and what I found essentially altered my viewpoint. In your reply you also asked me to prove that the Bible isn’t the work of God, I think I can give some pretty good arguments to support this claim.

Whether its to make it seem more dramatic, exaggerating to impress, or just forgetting details, when men tell stories they seem to tell the same story differently every time they tell it. Not saying this is always the case, but its fairly common. Also, if two men attempt to give an account of something that happens, again the stories are hardly ever the same. There are significant details that are either added or subtracted from the accounts. When reading the Bible its completely obvious that the same stories are often told but are sometimes told differently. I would like to think that an all knowing, honest God would be able to get the story right once and then not have to tell it again. In the bible, the stories are repeated, for what reason must God repeat the same stories over and over? And the stories repeated are often told much differently with key things being left out or added.

Example. What is the lineage of Jesus Christ? Depends, Matthew gives one account, Luke gives a completely different account. Why would an honest all knowing God give two completely separate accounts? And yes, I have heard all of the arguments attempting to explain why the accounts are different…wishful thinking. Why would God give two different accounts that could be used to cause people to stumble and face his eternal wrath?

Example. What were the last words of Christ before being crucified? Probably the single most influential man in western culture, the crux of the New Testament and Christianity, you would think that God could give a straight account of what his last words were. And again, the answer to this question depends on the account that you read. Three different accounts, three different stories.

Example. King David. 2 Samuel gives an accurate portrayal of David, it shows his Dr. Heckyl side as well as his Mr. Hyde side. We see a loving compassionate man of God, but we also see a man full of wickedness willing to commit adultury, murder his own men, and demand the slaughter of people who are lame and blind (2 Samuel 5:8). We also see that other accounts of King David, from the Chronicler, are written totally differently. The portrayals are cleverly written in a way that completely ignores all the bad stuff that 2 Samuel details. As if the Chronicler was attempting to make King David out to be more Godly. Did the Chronicler have a political,religious, or personal axe to grind? And one may argue that Chronicles was just God representing the faithful aspects of King David so it ignores the unflattering stories already covered by 2 Samuel. However, the same stories depicted in 2 Samuel that represent a wicked man are told in a way that represents a Godly man, same exact stories, but a different message portrayed. (Compare 1 Chronicles 11:4 with 2 Samuel 5:8 above, notice the hatred for the lame and blind has been ommitted)

Example. The death of Goliath. So who killed Goliath? Was it King David? 2 Samuel 21:19 says that Elhanan son of Jaare-Oregim killed Goliath. That is if you are reading a bible that was translated from Hebrew Text (NIV, NAS). If you are reading a Bible translated by King James it has been changed to say that Elhanan killed the brother of Goliath…how convenient. I think I am going to believe the Hebrew text on this one rather than King James. If I believe the Hebrew texts than again we have another conflict with that pesky revisionist…the Chronicler.

I think these examples prove that if the Bible is the word of God, God has a problem keeping his stories straight. I don’t believe that at all, I give God much more credit, I think God can keep his stories straight. I think the Bible is the word of man, and man has a problem keeping his stories straight.

]]> By: pat http://www.hologramthoughts.com/2007/02/14/a-conversation-between-friends-about-god/#comment-33 pat Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:50:00 +0000 http://gracesingles.com/mw/?p=27#comment-33 To the first anon poster, I would challenge you to support your claim that there is no evidence that the bible is really God's word. Because if you would do even just a little research you would find that there is quite a lot. And while there may be no smoking gun to say the bible is God's word, there's not one that says that it isn't either.<br/><br/>Second, I don't know which church denomination you grew up under, but it was made clear to me very early on that my relationship with Jesus was a personal one. So no matter the actions or beliefs held by my parents, grandparents, and so on, I have the responsibility to find out who God is and decide to either accept or reject him based on a personal decision made by researching the claims he has made. So my second challenge would be to do your own investigation, or re-investigate what you think you know. I think you might be suprised at what you discover.<br/><br/>And thats my challenge to anyone on this blog is to put aside what you think you know based on what you've heard, but apply some due dilligence and make your decision based on your discoveries.<br/><br/>Thanks for you time:) To the first anon poster, I would challenge you to support your claim that there is no evidence that the bible is really God’s word. Because if you would do even just a little research you would find that there is quite a lot. And while there may be no smoking gun to say the bible is God’s word, there’s not one that says that it isn’t either.

Second, I don’t know which church denomination you grew up under, but it was made clear to me very early on that my relationship with Jesus was a personal one. So no matter the actions or beliefs held by my parents, grandparents, and so on, I have the responsibility to find out who God is and decide to either accept or reject him based on a personal decision made by researching the claims he has made. So my second challenge would be to do your own investigation, or re-investigate what you think you know. I think you might be suprised at what you discover.

And thats my challenge to anyone on this blog is to put aside what you think you know based on what you’ve heard, but apply some due dilligence and make your decision based on your discoveries.

Thanks for you time:)

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.hologramthoughts.com/2007/02/14/a-conversation-between-friends-about-god/#comment-32 Anonymous Mon, 19 Feb 2007 01:35:00 +0000 http://gracesingles.com/mw/?p=27#comment-32 They absolutely have to ask Jesus into their heart to go to heaven. The road is narrow. The Bible is truth. The Deceiver is the one who plants "other ways" in people's mind. Your comments are ammunition because it totally disgraces His sacrifice for us. I only pray that you receive this in your heart before it's too late. They absolutely have to ask Jesus into their heart to go to heaven. The road is narrow. The Bible is truth. The Deceiver is the one who plants “other ways” in people’s mind. Your comments are ammunition because it totally disgraces His sacrifice for us. I only pray that you receive this in your heart before it’s too late.

]]> By: Matt http://www.hologramthoughts.com/2007/02/14/a-conversation-between-friends-about-god/#comment-31 Matt Sat, 17 Feb 2007 18:20:00 +0000 http://gracesingles.com/mw/?p=27#comment-31 You say that my thoughts are like ammunition pointed at Jesus' heart, but I have to wonder if you really read the transcript at all.<br/><br/>How could my thoughts have hurt Jesus? Because I said that people have abused the words he is supposed to have said? Because I do not feel that it could be possible that a truly kind and just God could send his message to one tribe and tell everyone else to accept the message in this fashion or face banishment to hell?<br/><br/>Can you, who ever you are, really tell me that a kind and compassionate God would operate in this fashion? If 'God' really is 'love' then surely 'God' is more about compassion and understanding than the bible would lead you to believe.<br/><br/>Do all peoples really have to accept Jesus as their 'personal Lord and savior' to please God and therefore be allowed to enter 'heaven'?<br/><br/>Makes zero sense to me. You say that my thoughts are like ammunition pointed at Jesus’ heart, but I have to wonder if you really read the transcript at all.

How could my thoughts have hurt Jesus? Because I said that people have abused the words he is supposed to have said? Because I do not feel that it could be possible that a truly kind and just God could send his message to one tribe and tell everyone else to accept the message in this fashion or face banishment to hell?

Can you, who ever you are, really tell me that a kind and compassionate God would operate in this fashion? If ‘God’ really is ‘love’ then surely ‘God’ is more about compassion and understanding than the bible would lead you to believe.

Do all peoples really have to accept Jesus as their ‘personal Lord and savior’ to please God and therefore be allowed to enter ‘heaven’?

Makes zero sense to me.

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.hologramthoughts.com/2007/02/14/a-conversation-between-friends-about-god/#comment-30 Anonymous Sat, 17 Feb 2007 04:23:00 +0000 http://gracesingles.com/mw/?p=27#comment-30 Your thoughts are like ammunition pointed at Jesus' heart Your thoughts are like ammunition pointed at Jesus’ heart

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